In the wakes of the deaths of Derek Boogaard, Rick Rypien, and Wade Belak this summer, the "does fighting belong in hockey" debate has started up again. Gregg Drinnan has a column today featuring a letter from a hockey mom who is also a medical professional, expressing concern about the effects of fighting and concussions on players. Veteran sportswriter Rob Vanstone of the Regina Leader-Post has a column today as well, in which he takes the position that fighting should be removed from the sport. And Neate Seger of Yahoo Sports Canada has a piece as well (quoting from the Drinnan and Vanstone articles, among others).
My opinion? I don't think fighting needs to be removed from hockey. What does need to be removed, however, are the players for whom fighting is their dominant skill. Every team at every level of hockey (excluding leagues which don't permit fighting obviously) has a player or three on their roster who would not be there if fighting were not permitted. They are usually the most frequent fighters, and if we're concerned about concussions and other injuries which result from fighting, then these are the players who are most vulnerable to those injuries.
I like a good tilt as much as many other fans do. But I like my fights to arise on the spur-of-the-moment from a situation in the game - a questionable hit, running over somebody's goaltender, that sort of thing. And those fights usually involve players who can play the game too - not the guy who has been on the end of the bench for the last ten minutes waiting for such a situation so he can go out and extract some revenge. Those are planned, staged fights, not spur-of-the-moment, reactionary ones. Ditto for the fights off faceoffs, at the start of periods, or at the end of one-sided games which "send a message". Those are planned fights which usually involve players who don't get enough ice time to be affected by any "message" the other team might be trying to send anyway.
So my position is, keep fighting legal, but lose the "enforcers" and the staged fights. How can this be accomplished though, that's the trickier part.....but if there's a will, there's a way.
Your thoughts? (This should be good for some comments....)
16 comments:
I agree with your position, Alan. I do think fighting should be allowable. And, I also think that, in removing the guys who are only there because of their fighting ability, the game will become more exciting. I appreciate a good tilt, too. But, I'd rather have a lineup of players who are more than just fighters. After all, most of us would probably rather see a good display of speed, skill and offence rather than see roster spots used up on players whose only skill is fighting. More of the Milan Lucics and Jarome Iginlas, please. Less of the Jody Shelleys and Brian McGrattans.
Dave from Calgary
Last year I asked you for stats on how many fights in the WHL involved players under the age of 18. I can't remember what percentage it turned out to be but it was high - somewhere around 40% if I remember right? I'm going to predict that the WHL is going to be looking a liability issues in the near future if it lets fighting continue because minors are involved.
The Junior A teams across western Canada are trying something that addresses this specifically. They are tracking the number of fights a player has and suspending them once they reach six for the season.
I know it is a very unpopular rule among most players and coaches. I certainly wasn't supportive of the rule when I heard about it and most people I talk to involved in those leagues hate the impact it has had on those leagues.
It is the kind of rule that may address your concern though. Cap the number of fights players can engage in and suddenly you don't have a goon anymore. I'm not sure where I fall. I have always been pro-fighting and I'm not going to have a knee-jerk reaction to these incidents. That said, it is important to reflect on the issue.
I think it's being completely blown out of proportion. A vast majority of concussions come from hits yet I don't see too many people calling for a complete ban on hitting.
In my opinion as long as you allow physical contact in the sport fighting will always be a part of the game (and it should be). Even in leagues where fighting isn't allowed in some European leagues and US college hockey) there are still fights which occur.
And I'm not one that believes you have to get rid of the fighter or enforcer. The reality is, if the fighters aren't doing the fighting somebody else is going to be expected to do it. And most coaches don't want their top players fighting. I just think the days of a heavyweight are likely numbered. Those are the guys that can inflict serious damage. Two smaller middleweight types going at it aren't going to inflict serious damage.
Either way I'd be very disappointed if fighting were banned. Hockey just wouldn't be the same sport. And the sport I grew up loving has changed too much already, IMO.
Shawn - my one problem with the six fight rule is that while it does have the effect of cutting down the goons, it also has the effect of punishing rugged players who also log a lot of minutes. If you've got a tough stud defenceman, 25 minute all-situation guy who can also drop the gloves, he's got six fights and is on the ice when somebody runs over his goalie....he can't engage in that spur-of-the-moment fight to stick up for his goalie because he'll get suspended. And yet those are exactly the fights that I think SHOULD be allowed.
Shawn L - I like your comment about how two middleweights won't inflict such damage. Perhaps the reason we're seeing these injuries more today is that today's heavyweights are so much larger than in the past. Today the top heavyweights in the NHL are guys who go 6'3" to 6'5" and weigh 225 - 240 lb. Look at the "old days", when the most feared fighters in the league were guys like Dave Schultz (6'1", 185 lb) and Tiger Williams (5'11", 190 lb). Today, at those sizes, Schultz and Williams would be considered middleweights. The heavyweights today are so much bigger and stronger and thus inflict more damage on each other.
I don't disagree with you Alan and I'm not saying I support the 6 fight rule I certainly don't. Does it help if you change the number to something like 10? I don't know.
I don't think you can put a maximum minutes per game rule on players or anything so I don't know how else you would ever get rid of the goon if you wanted to. I'm still not sure I would.
Alan -
Exactly. The sheer size and force of some the players today is flat out scary. Athletes today are almost like machines. As strange as it may sound they are too big and too strong for the sake of the sport, IMO. And that doesn't just apply to hockey. Football is the same way.
At the end of the day fighting isn't the main cause of all these concussion problems. However as per usual it is an easy scapegoat.
Hits from behind, careless stick work and even shot blocking can be much more dangerous than fighting. And most of the time (especially with the former) it is more dangerous.
Concussions are an inevitable part of the sport (or any contact sport for that matter). Awareness and detection is the key. I think smaller equipment and getting rid of the instigator rule will do a lot more good for the sport than trying to get rid of enforcers or fighting. But then again I'm not one of these new NHL or new hockey fans.
Also in response to the first Anonymous poster.
Keep in mind someone like Milan Lucic wouldn't even be in the NHL today if it weren't for fighting. Fortunately for Milan he was given an opportunity to get more ice time by Don Hay and he gradually improved year after year. Some players aren't given that chance. They are told to do one thing (in this case fight) and there isn't much opportunity for growth or improvement. A lot of these so called "useless goons" are more skilled than people think they are.
Any way I can go on about this topic for hours and hours (if you couldn't already tell). I'll try and shut up and allow others to share their opinions.
Just wondering Allan, what is it exactly that fighting adds to the game that it is worth preserving?
Allan, some good dialogue, but I can't see how 6 "spur of the moment" fights represents a good compromise. Either you buy fighting represents an unacceptable risk of concussions, or you don't. Instead increase the punishment for fighting (3 or 5 game suspension), so that players can decide if the on-ice wrong is sufficiently bad to require a "spur of the moment" avengement.
To anonymous asking what fighting adds: In short, 2 things:
1) More fans and players want it in the game than don't so you're adding paying customers.
2) Accountability. I feel extremely confident that stick fouls and dangerous hits will increase without fighting.
I know I'm not saying anything new here but I think it bears repeating that respect between players is not where it needs to be and removing fighting would increase that problem IMO. I would love to see a solution that reduced fighting but did something else in tandem that could still make a player think twice before engaging in a reckless act. If I knew what that solution was I'd be happy to share it.
Though I don't support the 6 and out you could do something like in soccer that after a certain amount you are suspended a game but you can have them knocked off for good behavior.
I have noticed personally that most of the fight caused concussions aren't caused because of the fight but because the player hits there head on the ice when they fall.
I would be fine if they developed better helmets and enforced the helmet rule by getting rid of the tecnicality that allows the player to unsnap the chin strap and having each other tap the helmet off so they aren't removing there own helmet.
I think we have to get a little real here. There is reality and perception. Being from Regina I kind of watched all of these guys as juniors and as pros.
Boogaard died from a drug overdose, allegedly given to him by his own brother!
Rypien was a fiesty team player who stood up for his team mates. At 5'11" - 190 he was hardly a goon and if I,m not mistaken he had 22 goals during his last year of junior and 58 points. Rick suffered depression as a junior player. He was away from home, lost a girlfriend in a car accident etc. A lot of young players get depressed away from home. Depression is a serious issue with young people even if they are not sports inclined. School, work, social, and relationship pressure cause many people to commit suicide every year. The Pats had a young player playing here whose mother was at home dying from cancer. Think that might cause some depression? In a classy move the Pats traded him back to his hometown so he could be near her until she died. These kids face a lot.
Belak was 1st rounder in the NHL and hardly a goon. He too suffered from depression dating back to his early life as far back as junior. His mother said as much in a LP sports article.
Every single day in our country someone commits suicide and usually depression is in the mix. All of them weren't hockey players and weren't taking shots to the head.
I watched Brad Hornung as a player. I also watch him as a quadraplegic after he was slammed into the borads on a check from behind. I have seen young kids take vicious elbows to the head, hit from a blind side. Horrible damage that was not caused from fighting!
Crosby and Savard are in big concussion trouble because of cheap hits, not fighting. It ended Kariya's career. It ended Lindros's career. There have been many others. Not from fighting but cheap shots. 90% of Scott Stevens hits were cheap shots but the NHL thought they were good hockey plays back then.
One simple rule change would fix most everything regarding unwanted fighting. If a player flips off his lid to fight, make it a game misconduct right away with a supplemental game. If a player looses his lid and then engages in a fight the same thing applies. Let the guys who really want to engage cut their hands up on visors and lids. If a players knocks the other players lid off during the fight, its over, and the linsemen have to intervene immediately.
Most players who fight get injured when their head hits the ice. That applies to a check and to a fight. The real truth is that most injuries to the head are caused from things other than fighting. Everytime there is an issue we have to blame something. It seems to me that teams, coaches and management should be better trained to recognize depression and have the resources available to deal with it.
Regina guy:
Good comments, however, I must add that Brad's injury not only changed his life, but also changed hockey. The Hockey Canada Insurance policy was not the same as it is now, so fees went up across the board for everyone, rules were changed, goalines moved (and moved back), etc. He has no head trauma, similar to hockey player depression.
Fighters rarely hit their heads on the ice from a fight. I know, as a WHL alumni, who fought perhaps 15 times in my career, that head injuries occur more in checks to the head and jaw, landed punches by Monster heavyweights.
Alan, I agree with some of your views on limiting the number of fights, and doing away with the enforcers. If a guy can't play more than 10 minutes per night on average, then he doesn't make an NHL roster. If hes a liability on the ice, then you need to let him go.
Staged fights have to go.
Thanks for your continued discussion on this matter.
Boogey's brother, knowing of Derek's addictions, was likely controlling the fact that he wasn't taking handfuls of OXY. It's like hiding the scotch bottle of a drunk aunt.
I think the easy solution would be reduce the number or players that a team is allowed to carry or dress for a game. If you reduced it to 6 defencemen and 9 forwards there would be no room for the "1 trick pony" fighters on the roster. If they don't have enough talent to play a regular shift the coach wouldn't have the opportunity to bury them at the end of the bench and try to only roll 2 lines......
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